Founded in 1988, it has grown to seven campuses in the Chicago metropolitan area. Jesus was dismayed by self-seeking among His disciples; he who would be great among you must become the servant of all.. Too bad there is not a single human being on the planet that is qualified. He should never again have a say in how people live their lives. You and the other TWW regulars feel like family. By creating offices and appointing people to them, we actually kind of circumvent that innate wisdom, we say this here guy has the title, hes the one, even if hes actually all facade and no substance. That changed on Friday. I dont blame the Thompsons. No more tithe. Now if some pastor or group of elders is abusing people, then gloves off. No more baptism. For me I choose to pray and let God work, he never ceases to amaze especially when he answers prayer. Im of course speaking about Paul. One church on six campuses serving together in this purpose: to glorify God and fulfill the Great Commission! Who started Harvest Bible Chapel? Were more or less on the same page, it sounds like. When you pay for it then maybe you can make your own rules. You drive over there, and sure enough theres the house thats in the picture from the magazine article. I am now beginning to wonder if it is not simply the beginning of wisdom. Consistent with your recreational activities, you took a gamble and lost. Yet another reason why the financial transparency laws for religious non-profit entities needs to change. Lord knows weve had enough explosions in the modern church. Thats the reason Adams concocted his scheme. They are increasing in excellence in academics and athletics, and all that God has in store for the next chapter. Peter wrote, Shepherd the flock of God which is among you Paul said, take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers The number of bishops is always plural, but the jurisdiction of these overseers is singular. Shes gone out of her way to state otherwise. This was a guy who was lauded before thousands each week on the stage, promoted on a national radio program, spread his influence through 18 books. I have purposely maintained my distance from my current pastor for that very reason. And theres a high likelihood this statement will get them expelled.. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Driscolls board is down to him as President and director, Jimmy Evans and Randall Taylor (who I believe is an attorney). Gathering during this time was unique. Most commenters here are members of the Body of Christ there is really only one Church whether they attend HBC or not, they are part of the fellowship there in spirit. Dallas, his dad Jerry Jenkins, and James MacDonald also played poker together. The laity has a huge role in keeping leaders in check, at least theoretically. I can completely understand why Dee wouldnt want people here to be dragging stuff out and speculating about a teenage boy. ++++++++++++++++++. This is not to defend JM or associates, but to note that the vision of eternal punishments that motivates (or justifies, or both) a lot of ministry in churches in the Western theological tradition (I keep coming back to that; sorry, but I have come to believe its important) puts a very heavy weight on one side of the cost/benefit calculus in ministry. Because I was asked to consider serving on the elder board there three days before I leftand the topic of 1Tim 3 wasnt brought up. he has no tore proof to offer me. i agree, Paul has worthy things to say that are beneficial. I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). Nice job. If the elders measured them selves against the qualities needed for the job and found themselves lacking, they should have withdrawn or the church members should have made the decision for them. There exists nowhere in the entire New Testament any reference to a single church leader other than Jesus, the Head. How you understand the word? a lover of what is good When people look back on the history of the American evangelical movement in the first years of the third millennium, I sure hope they will shake their heads and ask why we put up with this nonsense for so long. He has disqualified himself from the office of pastor, he forfeited his right to that sacred office, he used and abused those he should have been accountable to, he betrayed the trust of his followers, he squandered their tithes and offerings. Max: This is why I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the Truth. But this just doesnt seem to fit. the powerbrokers have everyone brainwashed that the insitution is too big to fail. (Stacey Wescott/Chicago Tribune/TNS. In every church I was part of the pastor put forth a list of men to choose from, and the pastor was appointed from outside the church. Having experienced the unique life-changing work that God does when we interrupt our typical routines, our leaders began searching the Midwest for land suitable toward building a camp, or property with an existing camp. Or maybe their model for doing church is wrong? His LLC scheme was dreamed up because James announced that no new debt would be taken on until the $43M in debt was paid off in full. I find it very comforting to know that Jesus entered into a world that was very similar to what we now face: Religion had become a caricature of what God desired, and Jesus gently called people to follow him, rather than fear men. You need to stop looking at yourself as a victim and a good guy and admit that you are the neo-Pharisee that you really are. I know Jesus is real and know He loves me, but too much of the Bible and Jesus name got mixed up with the abuse going on to my children, my wife, my friends and me. A: To learn how to do church in order to manipulate, intimidate and dominate trusting souls. Temptation sharp and keen. ex HCA Staff: Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain. Its a modern proverb that in organizations characterized by power differentials, mistreatment flows downhill. Ive had 58 years to observe her fruit, and, while not perfect, she has proven generally consistent and trustworthy. I pray that God will continue to use you to shine a spotlight on wicked works of darkness in Christendom today. But if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. Sovereign Grace Ministries Never! Dont think our former pastors quite there. Sunday services, weekly small groups, other events all give meaning to peoples lonely lives, and the rest is mostly fluff. It is likely that he deliberately sought the chips he could cash in on anyone who might be in a position to spill the beans. The post you refer to is maybe one of two that she didnt allow comments. So, so much we dont know. I do not see how Hall could seriously be held responsible for the tragic suicide of the young man, but am appreciative that the whole sorry event led him to reevaluate his heart. "I'm going to make mistakes. It makes you wonder what is in it for them to stay silent, or worse yet, to openly argue that the truth they were willing to report in secret should not be used to stop the victimization of hundreds of thousands of innocent Christians. ex HCA Staff: We know these things intrinsically by knowing the people. Because they have no conscience and no moral compass. POIMEN, is translated to English as either pastor or shepherd. If Dees afraid of Hall, she sure hasnt done a very good job of living it out. William J. Stewart. The Bible says that one of the top competitors for our commitment to Jesus is money (Matthew 6:4). Dallas, his dad Jerry Jenkins, and James MacDonald also played poker together. The history of church offices is a bit more complicated. husband of one wife gentle But your comment proves you are doing exactly what you oppose. Im convinced that an antinomian spirit has taken control of some ministries, where church leaders feel they have been released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law. I do not believe this is an endorsement of P&P, but I do believe this shows fear. TS00: That community is you all, for whom I am so grateful! I understand He loves us to infinity as my 6 year old likes to say, but it sure wouldve been nice if pastor had given parents of small children some kind of warning. I was there for 10 years and my daughters both attended Harvest Christian Academy and I had been asked to consider eldershipwe left in 2012 after repeated warnings from former elders. So yeah, theres really NOBODY looking over Driscolls shoulder, Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely (Lord Acton). So James has only paid a fraction of taxes that the rest of us little people would have had to without the luxury of the Pastor title and access to over $40M a year in donations. As Law Prof noted, JMac is not your usual run-of-the-mill preacher he had an international stage he had thousands of followers he failed you, HBC, and the church at large he has disqualified himself from ministry. I have to admit that Philippians 1 often comes to mind as I look at these mega-messes the American church is in. Oh, they all say how sorry they are, and admit to one degree or another some of the faults of James MacDonald. The size of the Elgin Campus allowed us to fulfill a dream: A preschool through grade 12 Christian school, to help us implant the truths of Gods Word into the hearts of young people five days a week in addition to the weekend. not greedy for money I can only imagine what it was like for children. birdoftheair: Very sobering time for disciples of the living God, our Saviour Lord Jesus. You have not fully recognized the level of evil that you eagerly participated in in order to promote yourself riding on the coattails of a famous narcissist and personally enrich yourself unrighteously with tithes that the New Testament does not even teach. Oh, I probably am too self-righteous or self-centered or something. This hits the nail on the head. Worst $12 I ever spent. Its like dj vu all over again. -Yogi Berra. In our common language, we use the word elder to describe one who is older than ourselves. As Lauren Diagle says it so very well: Im losing my religion/ To find You/ Im losing my religion, and finding something new/ Cause I need something different/ And different looks like You/. What church does Dallas Jenkins attend? All three words refer to one position or office within the church, that of the elders. But they do eventually turn. Im amazed to find Im not alone on this. I just know that if one of the callers in my English Country Dance or Contra Dance communities was screaming at people or even talking in a consistently rude way, that would not stand for a day, let alone years. As of 2020, they now gather as City Line Church. Consider the following Scriptures: And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors [POIMEN] and teachers (Ephesians 4:11). When I did see it, in my home, I was livid that they essentially forced people to go. Or maybe its the era of the Judges, when every man did what was right in his own sight.. These head pastors will gladly pay SM large fees in exchange for helping them become secret multi-millionaires. And it is bad form to hijack a thread to comment on a topic when asked not to. First question: when was this letter written and sent? The place is not worth saving. . What is significant about Clements first letter is how he describes the church offices as an established fact rather than as something he was trying to invent from scratch. Leila: he will be partnering with a music minister from another local church and they are starting a church service in a bar on Sunday evenings. These charlatans cannot be allowed to get away with this. Driscoll was a featured speaker at that event last year. That was 30 years ago and it proved to be true. Further, a cental message of the Bible, as I learned over many, many years, is that mankind is fallen, and religious leaders/system are fallen, in many ways more fallen than the secular/hunanistic world that so many religous leaders rail against. Thanks and God bless to all the TWW regulars! Lets face it, in this era one can access whatever superior teaching is preferred in the comfort of their home or car. This also is so very true! Announcements. Airing Mr. and Mrs. MacDonalds dirty laundry or private correspondence in that case on a public forum would be gossipy and downright cruel. Pathetic at best. You are loved!. And who appoints the elders (Disciples are no longer with us) if every church is autonomous? No ministry is too big to fail if it is not from God. I am sorry for your pain. 3/1/2023 - 7:00pm-8:00pm. Jesus said that you cannot serve both Him and Mammon. Not at all. Years ago when I was experiencing a dark period spiritually someone said to me, Hang onto God! In response without thinking these words came out of my mouth (and I cant help but think it was the Holy Spirit speaking), I cant hang onto God right now but He will hang onto me. Dallas Jenkins: It was given to the elders two months ago. Makes me sad to think its so. He is son of celebrated Left Behind author Jerry Jenkins. Also such leaders do have authority (God-given). The first service in this new house of God was held on September 10, 1995. I knew of one really good church in Chapel Hill (Chapel Hill Bible Church) for years ago. elastigirl: you are a very comforting presence here, Max. Also, your letter simply further bolsters credibility of the excellent work from the Elephants Debt and Julie Roys. But some dopes might not think they were so funny, eh?. all of this stuff was predicted by the NT. Harvest CEO J Scott Milholland, was one of the men who was responsible for the $10M year secret Black Fund which was used to grossly enrich the top 20 execs at Harvest (including Dallas Jenkins). Max: TS00: Or would they even care? elastigirl: why does it matter what Paul thinks? It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. TS00: because sometimes I feel pretty alone in this wilderness. Vincent: you must have first hand knowledge and part of that fellowship in some fashion. If not, he served as an elder when he wasnt one and we call that a fraud, And there were boatloads of frauds on those elder boards, How do I know? I think theres a massive problem with the deference thats given to pastors and other religious leaders. We believe that disciples of Jesus profess that He is Lord, practice His Ways, and persevere in both their profession and practice. We simply interpret the words through a different filter. I am not suggesting that this is or is not the way Jesus intended for his church. We have millions of church folks in America who say they would die to protect the Bible, but not many actually read it! Keep reading. A shepherd does not own the sheep, but a hireling, responsible to the true owner for seeing after them, protecting them, helping them to make their way to new pastures and safe water when the old become bare. Truth (the Word) + The Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit) = Revealed Truth. TS00: I find it very comforting to know that Jesus entered into a world that was very similar to what we now face: Religion had become a caricature of what God desired, and Jesus gently called people to follow him, rather than fear men. All of the above is not an option, but it seems hard to pick one over any other. View All. Thats really the point. Id only add that the scar and damage to my faith as a result of Harvest is real, deeply painful, and permanent. But as for me, I watch in hope for the LORD, I wait for God my Savior; my God will hear me. Micah 7:5-7, It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in princes. Psalm 118:9, Thus says the Lord: Cursed is the man who trusts in man Jeremiah 17:5. I believe that if I hadnt been a strong donor, I would not have been considered and wouldnt have vaulted through Harvest leadership over more deserving peers. Please forgive me. And thats the cold, hard truth. Unless, trying very hard to see it from the inside' their vision of God, whom they reckon they were imitating, is more arbitrary, capricious, violent and domineering than mine. Both HBC & WC had a plurality of elders and a single pastor as the head of their church. The days of intermediaries are over, and we all have access to the very Spirit of God to lead us personally as he desires us to go. Ideally, we wouldnt need Twitter and blogs to expose the truth about corrupt churches, ministries, and their leaders. When I first started reading your comment I thought it was serious and that I would have to redact the tweet. God looks lovingly upon your confusion and pain, and wants nothing more than for you to find and know him as he truly is, apart from all of the hypocrisy and falsity that parades as the institutional church. Once credibility is lost, it is hard to regain. Ill have to ruminate on that a while. To this day I feel used, abused, and very stupid for not catching on. TS00: God bless, Law Prof. My heart goes out to you. Its sad to have lived to such a ripe old age to witness a generation that doesnt respect their elders as they ought. You cant change that. Not just then but through darker times which subsequently came (including our own trials with another Harvest outlet). EPISKOPOS, translated in English is an overseer or a bishop. He was a cynical grandstands and shameless self-promoter. Thompson started questioning MacDonalds spending in 2006, when he saw the pastors home in Inverness featured in Chicago magazine. they are kind. Sadly, many have not served well. Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ is one of the most GRAPHIC and INTENSE and VIOLENT art films ever made. I think this is how these pastors maintain tribal loyalties. ex HCA Staff: More and more, I am willing to settle for walking with God, and being thankful for a community of people I may never meet in this life, but who support and encourage one another in the manner God called his people to do. I will have to wait until I get to my computer because Im on my phone and the type of the letter is too small to read. http://www.globalpokerindex.com/poker-players/frederick-adams-169223/. Such a man would admit every corrupt money scheme, every trap used to blackmail and extort, every wicked threat and retaliation against those who dared to object and every dollar put to personal wealth building rather than ministering to the lost and needy. Great comment! It is the internal nagging I have following Dees post on Friday about JD Hall and Braxton Caner. Sure, an innocent, upright person could be naively drawn into something they thought was worthy. I suspect that there is a world of difference between what we see in the NT and what we experience in our day, even in groups that try to adhere to the so-called Biblical model. We have partnered with Grace Theological Seminary and Chicago Partnership to move onward in equipping leaders to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Indeed, I tremble considering even posting this brief comment for fear of retribution. In fact, I raised my coffee cup in their honor this morning and said to the pugs, May they get their money back.. But you could change the future by using your failure for good. and a Pastor. Good Lord, how does that happen?! They existed to serve him as *yes* men and in that respect, they are quite accomplished. Your apoplectic friend needs to go read the Bible, maybe one of those verses the mega preachers who demand your trust intentionally ignore or havent read themselves, like this one: Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save. Psalms 146:3, Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25, Do not trust a neighbor; put no confidence in a friend. The 7 elders below were given an opportunity to step down and avoid this lawsuit. A person who thinks they are qualified, is someone who may need to take some time to discern whether thats true. I dont think so. After reading each post on this matter, I cannot find a single one that brings dishonor to the Lord Jesus. The damage he has done is incalculable. All this, with the goal of getting me, my family and the Executive Elders removed ," MacDonald wrote. I was there (our kids went there for 2 too long years) and it was unreal what went on during and after that incident. I have my faith left, but so much that I thought was real about my faith has been shaken off. You could cold feet and released a scaled-back version instead. Now, four of Harvest Bible Chapels campuses have Hope Centers to provide food and other resources to families in across Chicagoland to provide help and hope found only in Jesus. Why would a quickly growing church choose an unproven young man, father of very young children (along with others similarly unproven, all from our young marrieds class) to be an elder, responsible for overseeing and counseling others? sober-minded And just because there is a list of qualifications doesnt mean that men wont lie to gain access, or construct a pseudo religion to hide in. Also, your letter simply further bolsters credibility of the excellent work from the Elephants Debt and Julie Roys. Max: I suspect that even MacDonald started out with good intentions (maybe). MORE CONCERNING THE ELDERSHIP Why is any pastor allowed to act like this? Another typo I meant Peter and Paul. I dont know that there isnt a fair amount of corruption in smaller churches, but it seems to me once pastors start making huge amounts of money, it becomes more and more important to maintain or increase that above all else. My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. (Dee). Dallas Jenkins: Neither Dean Butters nor I wanted our letters published. Give them what they want in the present, and they wont care about the past. Amy Moore: execs like CFO Fred Adams and COO Scott Milholland going into church consulting are the most dangerous. sober-minded not violent No owner of a company will hire just anyone to oversee operations. But that tends to require some kind of a hierarchy where some subset of the larger group comes up with stated or unstated norms and consequences for violating the norms. Ken F (aka Tweed): Are we any better? With 17+ degree options, we have something for everyone. In the face of authoritarian church leaders who excommunicate, run off or demonize anyone who dares to challenge their false authority and/or iniquity, blogs have filled the void of public accountability. Every weekend we open the word of God and study the truth He has revealed to us. Id never seen the movie and still havent, but it was some pretty shocking stuff for a guy who hadnt seen a horror movie since the 1980s. Thems shootin words in these parts (Christianville), maam. hospitable The qualifications are very restrictive for the reason that God wants and needs the best possible candidates to lead His people. That notion is made up nonsense, harmful. Vincent is a coward: came to an old thread less likely to be read and didnt stick around to answer for his comment. My new son-in-law is a United Methodist pastor. Ill have to ruminate on that a while. just more places for the wolves to hide. These arent hard hurdles for true elders to get throughbut if you ask a church elder to tell you about their elders and it comes back with a set of corporate jargon? Harvest launched a radio show; founded a Christian school with over 700 students; built its own retreat center; produced feature-length films; wrote its own worship songs; and created its own. The first service in this new house of God was held on September 10, 1995. Then when it all comes to an angry pus-filled head and finally pops because the infection is so deep, he decides that things have gone too far and he writes a letter (but a private letter) and gets angry when its shared as a means of supporting the people whove been trying to expose the abuse. Then, I started laughing! Like it or not thats whats happening. Also, we must note who it is that the elders have authority over. (baby dont hurt me no more) Maybe JMs associates and enablers thought the most loving thing was to go along with JM for the sake of the everlasting benefits in heaven that would be experienced in the future by the people who were being abused, manipulated, fleeced here under the sun, but who nevertheless were hearing the gospel (as they understood gospel), even though it looks to us like it was being preached from false motives. He will spend years building a good rapport before gradually working toward his true agenda. This is called domestication. Harvests former CFO, Fred Adams, now runs a sketchy consulting group that helps wealthy elite church insiders set up secret LLCs to buy church buildings so that the churches can then transfer wealth to them in the form of both monthly rentals instead of building equity for the members, while also authorizing the campuses to make major improvements and expansions that cost millions, which will then belong to the LLC owners, not the flock. 4107 N Steele Blvd. They were entitled to each other; thus, they will share in the fall from grace. The Riverside-based Harvest Christian Fellowship will be joining the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant body that has about 15 million members.The Rev. I think you are correct in noting this early Church writer's statements. Consider the listing of qualifications which Paul wrote to Titus and Titus: A BISHOP MUST BE Every single person there loves Harvest so much that they cant leave?? 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